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08-14-11, 07:42 AM #1
British prime minister criticized for bringing LAPD police chief as advisor about "zero tolerance" law enforcementA row broke out between David Cameron and a top police officer last night over the Prime Minister's plans to bring in a U.S. 'Supercop' as an adviser as he 'gets tough' on street crime.
Sir Hugh Orde, a frontrunner to become the new Scotland Yard Commissioner, criticised the recruitment of William Bratton.
The 63-year-old is being drafted in by the Prime Minister after he dealt with riots in Los Angeles in 1992.But Sir Hugh, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, questioned what role U.S. policy has in the UK.
Questioning the appointment of Mr Bratton, he said in an interview with the Independent on Sunday: 'I am not sure I want to learn about gangs from an area of America that has 400 of them.
'It seems to me, if you've got 400 gangs, then you're not being very effective. If you look at the style of policing in the States, and their levels of violence, they are fundamentally different from here.
'What I suggested to the Home Secretary is a more sensible approach, maybe to look across far wider styles of policing; and, more usefully, at European styles - they, like us, are bound by the European Convention.
'My sense is, when we've done that, we will find the British model is probably the top.'
08-14-11, 10:25 AM #2
In other words let's hold their hands and talk about their feelings. Fuck that. They need a serious ass whooping, then they need to be kicked out the back of a helicopter in the English channel so they can think about what they've done.'Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a
delusional, illogical liberal minority, and rabidly
promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely
possible to pick up a turd by the clean end!'
“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.” Sigmund Freud
08-14-11, 10:45 AM #3
well if his advise is to lock up more people and to give me a shotgun then I'm all for it.
However if he advised that the government would ignore him. When he reduced crime in LA and NY he increased the establishment of those police departments - the government are cutting out numbers. He locked up more criminals - the government are closing prisons. He reduced paperwork and pointless bureaucracy - the government talks about this before introducing more forms and measures of performance. In short they won't listen if he doesn't say what they want."all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" Edmund Burke.
"the world is a dangerous place place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who do not do anything about it" Albert Einstein
08-14-11, 11:30 AM #4'I am not sure I want to learn about gangs from an area of America that has 400 of them.\\` ` ` ` < ` )___/\
`` ` ` ` (3--(____)
"...but to forget your duck, of course, means you're really screwed." - Gary Larson
08-14-11, 02:21 PM #5
I think Hugh has a point. What works here, may not work there.
I think the problems there have more to do with hamstringing the police with politics, and a judicial system that won't impose any significant punishment for violent and anti-social crime. I'm really not sure what Bratton can bring to the table there, besides statistical analysis.
An interesting post from the UK's Police Inspector blog about this:
Five Things Bill Needs To Know……. « POLICE INSPECTOR BLOG
Five Things Bill Needs To Know…….
August 6, 2011 by inspectorgadget
Before he takes the top job at the Met…..
1. Pay and conditions.
An NYPD officer with 5 years service earns the equivalent of around £60,000 per year. A UK officer with the same service earns around half of that. When Bill arrives he will find police officers actually facing reductions to their wages and pension conditions, along with the austerity measures faced by everyone else. NYPD and LAPD have never reduced pay and stopped recruiting in their entire histories.
When Bill Bratton hires cops he gives them a wage and they get to keep it. He can’t do that here.
2. Support form the Courts.
The Courts in this country are the softest most accommodating and gullible in the developed world. Last year, no one convicted of knife crime served the fully available sentence and not a single convicted burglar received the maximum sentence. ‘Zero Tolerance’ policing does not work where an offender can swagger away from a court laughing. Jason Owen, one of the three people jailed over the death of abused toddler Baby Peter Connelly in London, has just been released from prison after serving 36 months of his sentence.
When Bill Bratton locks people up they stay locked up. He can’t do that here.
3. The Bail Act
The famous ‘Bratton’ way of policing leans heavily on locking up suspects while investigations are carried out. In this way, witnesses can come forward, investigators have time to gather evidence without interference and the criminal is prevented from committing further offences. Here in Britain, Bill will find at least 95% of all the suspects he is trying to disrupt simply walking out of the police station after 24 hours.
When Bill Bratton’s cops arrest a hardened criminal they automatically get remanded in custody. We can’t do that here.
4. Weapons and equipment
British front-line uniformed police officers are armed with a small tin of pepper and an aluminium stick. You might get an armed unit within 20 minutes if you are lucky, the police dogs can’t be used in public order situations incase they bite someone and we are the only police in the developed world who are banned from using water cannon, baton rounds and CS grenades.
Bill’s NYPD and LAPD officers would simply refuse to police under these conditions.
5. Command & Control.
Bill would not really be in command. It’s a very confusing situation. Who is in charge? The Commissioner/Chief Constable? The so-called ‘community leaders’ or IAG’s? The police authority? The Mayor? The Home Secretary? The media? All of these competing interests have the influence, and in some cases the power, to sack or remove the top dog. Recent history suggests that it may be impossible to survive for long.
Bill is used to dealing with politicians and communities, but he was actually ‘in charge’ at the time. Bill won’t like being kicked around by the MPA.
It is the country which is broken. The police, the education system, care for the elderly and vulnerable, all these things are broken because the country is broken. Bill would last about one week before he demanded major changes in the system. This would place him in immediate conflict with the likes of Kenneth Clarke, Shami Chakrabarti, the judiciary, the BBC and other left-wing media. He would inevitable lose to these vested interests.That which does not kill me, better start fucking running.
If I lived every day like it was my last, the body count would be staggering.
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08-14-11, 03:14 PM #6The Reason People Hate Cops & Causer of WarSupporting Member Lvl 2
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Can Bratton provide some guidance and useful information? Sure.
But the criminal justice system and the culture are dramatically different in England and the US, even though there are commonalities. We've seen that here occasionally, and I've seen it in other discussions with cops on the other side of the Atlantic.
And I question the idea of "we just had a riot, so let's call in someone to tell us what we did wrong." Look to the causes, look to the response -- but you don't necessarily need an outsider to look into it.
Gangs are an especially complicated phenomenon. There are huge differences even in the "same" gang in different areas of the US. I tell a CA gang investigator that bangers work day jobs and they'll look at me like I've got 3 heads -- but bangers in my area most certainly DO work day jobs. We don't have the cultural entrenchment and support of banging as a lifestyle to let them not work. I'm confident that the gang lifestyle in England will be even more different...Voting against incumbents until we get a Congress that does its job.
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