Should teachers & other school staff be allowed to carry concealed weapons in school?

[TXCharlie]

Most SROs (in my area, at least) work multiple schools. There's a greater than 50% chance that the SRO will not be on campus at any given time during the day. Even if the SRO is present, a bad guy can easily make the SRO his first target, and then have his way with the rest of the school. In my town, a response by patrol officers would take several minutes at best, and 10-15 minutes on average. They're not going to protect anybody's life, they're going to investigate after the fact.

+1 - And SWAT has a history of showing up too late, also.

I forget where I read it, but it seems to me that the "Golden Minute" rule applies here (i.e., If an active shooter is not dropped in the first minute, then the overall body count will increase drastically as he gains control over his victims).

[carolina]

There are some very good points here for both sides, and I could see why some teachers would want to have protection. I still have to say no, it is not a good idea.

I realize the person who has the ccw may feel confident in their ability and have sound judgment in properly carrying and using the weapon.

I think you're forgetting the mind set of the student(s) that is causing the incident to begin with. This is a child that is mentally confused, or a gang member that is ten feet tall and bullet proof ...

He is not going to accept the fact his teacher is going to be brave enough to pull that trigger or if he threatens little sally that is such a sweet and innocent child that they wont lay down that gun in lieu of them hitting that student or worse shooting them to prove a point.

I'm sorry but I still say leave it to the professionals. Trained in the mind games and mental issues that are associated with this kind of terror. I still think teachers carrying would only make matters worse.

The only exception I see, is a retired military or LEO.

[Buttercup]

There are some very good points here for both sides, and I could see why some teachers would want to have protection. I still have to say no, it is not a good idea.

I realize the person who has the ccw may feel confident in their ability and have sound judgment in properly carrying and using the weapon.

I think you're forgetting the mind set of the student(s) that is causing the incident to begin with. This is a child that is mentally confused, or a gang member that is ten feet tall and bullet proof ...

He is not going to accept the fact his teacher is going to be brave enough to pull that trigger or if he threatens little sally that is such a sweet and innocent child that they wont lay down that gun in lieu of them hitting that student or worse shooting them to prove a point.

I'm sorry but I still say leave it to the professionals. Trained in the mind games and mental issues that are associated with this kind of terror. I still think teachers carrying would only make matters worse.

The only exception I see, is a retired military or LEO.

You can't always assume that it's going to be a student that triggers an incident. I vote no. While a teacher or school administrator may have the proper training to operate a firearm, they lack the training to deal with situations that may arise where use of that firearm in a school setting may become necessary.

As others have said, however, I would make an exception for retired LEOs and ex-military.

[Jackalope]

Everybody wants to make an exception for prior military, but I'm in the Army and I can tell you I trust the average soldier with a gun even LESS than I do the average teacher.

[OFK]

Teachers are paid to teach. Teachers need to be just teachers. That my vote.

[carolina]

You can't always assume that it's going to be a student that triggers an incident. I vote no. While a teacher or school administrator may have the proper training to operate a firearm, they lack the training to deal with situations that may arise where use of that firearm in a school setting may become necessary.

s others have said, however, I would make an exception for retired LEOs and ex-military.

True. I can't think of any that were not though. In either case they have to have mental issues going on, and I don't feel they would give much credibility to a person that teaches as a formidable opponent if they threatened the life of a student.

IMO a lot of that is being able to read the fear in ones eyes or expressions. Which I think that type of person thrives on. In other words I think you need more than just training in proper use of a weapon, where multiple lives are at stake like a public setting.

[TheOldRhino]

You can't always assume that it's going to be a student that triggers an incident. I vote no. While a teacher or school administrator may have the proper training to operate a firearm, they lack the training to deal with situations that may arise where use of that firearm in a school setting may become necessary.

As others have said, however, I would make an exception for retired LEOs and ex-military.

This is where the training in judgemental use of deadly force would come in. My point was that if a teacher elected to come to school armed, their training should be no different than mine.

This country has a basic constitutional right for it's citizens to carry a firearm to protect themselves. The 2nd amendment doesn't end in "...except for while at school." They have a right to carry it, and I argue any law that says otherwise is unconstitutional. I'm just taking the extra step and agreeing that if a teacher wants to carry, then they should have some training.

[Buttercup]

True. I can't think of any that were not though. In either case they have to have mental issues going on, and I don't feel they would give much credibility to a person that teaches as a formidable opponent if they threatened the life of a student.

IMO a lot of that is being able to read the fear in ones eyes or expressions. Which I think that type of person thrives on. In other words I think you need more than just training in proper use of a weapon, where multiple lives are at stake like a public setting.

The Amish school shooting and the Montreal college shooting were not committed by students, those are two that come to mind immediately.

[Buttercup]

This is where the training in judgemental use of deadly force would come in. My point was that if a teacher elected to come to school armed, their training should be no different than mine.

This country has a basic constitutional right for it's citizens to carry a firearm to protect themselves. The 2nd amendment doesn't end in "...except for while at school." They have a right to carry it, and I argue any law that says otherwise is unconstitutional. I'm just taking the extra step and agreeing that if a teacher wants to carry, then they should have some training.

Yes, they could be trained but would still never be as well equipped as professionals in handling those situations.

[OFK]

This is where the training in judgemental use of deadly force would come in. My point was that if a teacher elected to come to school armed, their training should be no different than mine.

This country has a basic constitutional right for it's citizens to carry a firearm to protect themselves. The 2nd amendment doesn't end in "...except for while at school." They have a right to carry it, and I argue any law that says otherwise is unconstitutional. I'm just taking the extra step and agreeing that if a teacher wants to carry, then they should have some training.

You are so not a libertarian or whatever

[phoenixrose]

This is where the training in judgemental use of deadly force would come in. My point was that if a teacher elected to come to school armed, their training should be no different than mine.

This country has a basic constitutional right for it's citizens to carry a firearm to protect themselves. The 2nd amendment doesn't end in "...except for while at school." They have a right to carry it, and I argue any law that says otherwise is unconstitutional. I'm just taking the extra step and agreeing that if a teacher wants to carry, then they should have some training.

i agree with you 100%. If I have the training...I should be able to carry ANYWHERE. BUT, that is not reality. There are a lot of businesses that will not let you carry on premises. A lot of businesses won't allow employees to carry while at work. It's just the way it is. Schools are no different.

Also, I don't think you can make a blanket statement about this, unless you are familiar with a teacher's day. The SETTING is not condusive to carrying. It is just too unpredictable, too much potential for something to go wrong.

A teacher's area of expertise is TEACHING. Not, carrying and using a weapon. IF, we were to go to carrying in school, I agree with Rhino. Teachers would need the SAME level of training as LEO....AND, it would need to be site-specific...what to do in THEIR building...other options...back-up plans....how to evacuate children...etc. It would need to be approached as a PLAN of ACTION...not just training on how to use a weapon. Training would also need to be on-going. If you assume the responsibility of carrying a weapon, you need to assume the responsibility of staying current on the training.

IMHO, I think you open a can of worms with this one. The incidents of school violence are minimal, by comparison to other violence and crimes.

[TXCharlie]

Yes, they could be trained but would still never be as well equipped as professionals in handling those situations.

We differ on that point - If they were made part of the Police Reserve division, trained and patroled with the police, then they would gain the experience of police professionals. Maybe they wouldn't progress quite as fast because they wouldn't have the hours in, but they would eventually.

[phoenixrose]

We differ on that point - If they were made part of the Police Reserve division, trained and patroled with the police, then they would gain the experience of police professionals. Maybe they wouldn't progress quite as fast because they wouldn't have the hours in, but they would eventually.

Do you realize that teaching is MORE than a full time job?
I put in an AVERAGE of 45-55 hours a week. That doesn't count classroom time for those teachers who take night classes to improve teaching skills or gain college credit towards a Masters or Doctorate.

To be GOOD at your job...or any profession, for that matter...you NEED to put in time, rack up experience. In order for a teacher to be proficient at police procedures...yes, they need to spend the time training and gain the experience. So, maybe we should just have LE in the classrooms teaching. Make educating our children a secondary concern to protecting them.

If you spread yourself too thin...you run the risk of diluting the quality of the product.

[TXCharlie]

Ok, well we're back to untrained teachers packing secretly and illegally, hoping that they don't get caught.

I doubt very seriously that any additional SRO's or the elaborate measures I mentioned would ever be enacted, anyway, on the very small chance that a school shooting may happen eventually - Too much money and political resistance.

[phoenixrose]

Ok, well we're back to untrained teachers packing secretly and illegally, hoping that they don't get caught.

I doubt very seriously that any additional SRO's or the elaborate measures I mentioned would ever be enacted, anyway, on the very small chance that a school shooting may happen eventually - Too much money and political resistance.

There's an answer.
We just have to get past the emotion that puts the two factions on opposite ends of the spectrum. Once we do that, then the possibilities in the middle start opening up, and I believe that is where the answers will be found.

[HardNoseBull]

Good topic, now here's my quarters worth. Teachers are not trained leos' they are trained teachers. The decided to become educators not LEO's. Sure some would love to carry a gun, but how many do not want to, how many would quit if told they had to carry a weapon and possibly engage a target and use deadly force? When we are all hired as Peace Officers we had a extensive process from day 1-till graduation. From psychological exams, to hands on rounds down range training. Think about how we would have to remodel the education system, just for hiring. To me arming teachers is a politician cop out, I say that because it's cheaper to arm them, then start a new agency. I would rather each state have a School Police agency, having say a minimum of 4 officers on site with patrolling officers as well. I know that the start up would be huge, but once it's going you have trained police officers, dealing with situations in the environment they are used to. They know the staff and students. I think it's the way to go. Just a thought.

[Hannibal]

Good topic, now here's my quarters worth. Teachers are not trained leos' they are trained teachers. The decided to become educators not LEO's. Sure some would love to carry a gun, but how many do not want to, how many would quit if told they had to carry a weapon and possibly engage a target and use deadly force? When we are all hired as Peace Officers we had a extensive process from day 1-till graduation. From psychological exams, to hands on rounds down range training. Think about how we would have to remodel the education system, just for hiring. To me arming teachers is a politician cop out, I say that because it's cheaper to arm them, then start a new agency. I would rather each state have a School Police agency, having say a minimum of 4 officers on site with patrolling officers as well. I know that the start up would be huge, but once it's going you have trained police officers, dealing with situations in the environment they are used to. They know the staff and students. I think it's the way to go. Just a thought.

Well said.

[phoenixrose]

Well said, HNB.
Interesting POA.

As is the wont of most school districts, there's a committee for everything. In my school, I am part of the Disaster Committee...one of the teachers that responds should there be a shooter, bomb threat, whatever. Depending on the level of the threat, there are different predetermined actions we are supposed to take.

I think, if something like this plan were to be used, there could be a small number of teachers--willing to be trained--that could be used by the SRO's as part of that first line of defense. They may not carry a weapon...or maybe they will....depends on the district, the training, the system, the teachers. If there are even 1 or 2 trained teachers in the building, that would extend the effectiveness of LEO in meeting and dealing with a crisis. But again, it would have to be a well-planned set up. These teachers would have to be willing to put in the time and effort not only to train, but to follow that up with practice, etc.

I'm not vascillating here, or playing devil's advocate. I still believe guns in schools are not practical. BUT....like I said in the above post...the two factions of opinion need to meet in the middle somewhere if there is ever going to be a solution. I have no idea what the answer is...or if there is one. It's sad to think we've come to the point that we are even discussing the need to arm teachers.

[Buttercup]

Good topic, now here's my quarters worth. Teachers are not trained leos' they are trained teachers. The decided to become educators not LEO's. Sure some would love to carry a gun, but how many do not want to, how many would quit if told they had to carry a weapon and possibly engage a target and use deadly force? When we are all hired as Peace Officers we had a extensive process from day 1-till graduation. From psychological exams, to hands on rounds down range training. Think about how we would have to remodel the education system, just for hiring. To me arming teachers is a politician cop out, I say that because it's cheaper to arm them, then start a new agency. I would rather each state have a School Police agency, having say a minimum of 4 officers on site with patrolling officers as well. I know that the start up would be huge, but once it's going you have trained police officers, dealing with situations in the environment they are used to. They know the staff and students. I think it's the way to go. Just a thought.

Excellent point.

[Welpe]

Yes, they could be trained but would still never be as well equipped as professionals in handling those situations.

You could potentially say the same thing about regular citizens who are carrying. Unless you don't think any body but cops should be able to carry concealed?

I agree with Rhino. Don't make carrying mandatory but make it available. Make them go through the training and refresher courses and if they can't pass, they can't carry.

That or maybe we can invent a time machine and go back to the days where everyone had hunting rifles in their trucks parked in the school parking lot. There didn't seem to be any school shootings then.